Liberals will often control the debate through the straw man of the liberal media by avoiding the reasonable subject under discussion and using an obvious misdirection, usually “implying” or stating an obvious lie or mental twist that the media will not question, which makes it appear legitimate, reasonable, and mainstream. People are poor because Americans are rich; Everybody hates us because of Bush [China? India? Bet nobody asked them. Count the people.]; Everyone loves us because of Obama [the French will take one Guatanamo prisoner after Obama goes to Europe. Obama is Lincoln,FDR and JFK rolled into one. If Bush only palmed off one prisoner to all of Europe he would have been lampooned as a loser]; We cannot win in Iraq because of Bush [What surge?]; We cannot lose in Afghanistan because of Obama [You think Iraq is tough, keep talking tough against Pakistan. What is the strategy?]; The problem with Mexican drug lords is Americans are free and have guns [maybe Hollywood could quit glorifying drugs and quit buying and using drugs financing the criminal rapist murderers who are corrupting the Mexican government and police force.] Companies actually make money keeping you alive longer than ever before, [how dare they? How much does Clooney make a year pretending he is a doctor?]; The government will make healthcare affordable  or fix the ecomomy or you fill in the blanks [how? Oh by printing up money! I see it now! It is so simple! Why doesn't every country in the world do that? Brilliant, you are all geniuses.] etc. They also unquestionably project this truth into the past, such as with the dubious Obama Churchill quote. [Maybe he should have kept the Churchill bust when offered, instead of rudely giving it back].

For example, defining torture may be a necessary discussion for our society to avoid criminalizing loyal hard working national defense people , so instead we will lie to throw some red meat to the extreme left who is pissed of from Obama giving so much money to the rich people that supposedly the right is serving [more money transferred from current and future middle class to the wealthy [in these failed industries and financial institutions who obviously were not monitored and existing laws were not enforced] than ever in the history of the world. Who did you think attended the $30,000 a plate dinner, bag ladies?]:

“Torture is whatever we say it was, and always has been."

“Everyone is covered by, [implying therefore protected from questioning or punishment] the Geneva convention.'

"Torture is not and has never been effective"

‘When torture has been effective [what?] the information either was untrue or we already had it.[implying it had no value. Also avoids the timing issue and contrary evidence by not releasing any information that contradicts]”

If we are going to discuss what actions we will take to protect ourselves, that is what we should do. Spies and saboteurs can be executed in most countries in most times. Avoiding discussing the Hague and the Geneva convention for brevity, they do cover punishment including the use of the death penalty.[ Article 85 Offenses committed before capture, Article 87 Penalties, Article 100 11. Death penalty. Even if water boarding is going to be considered torture by the United States at this time, it would not have been considered torture in the past in most countries, including this one, for reasons involving physical versus psychological effects. We certainly extradite to countries that really do "real" physical torture, and so did a lot of Obama's appointees. They no longer talk about "Rendition" since his CIA head Leon Panetta and a bunch of Obama appointees would have to answer questions about the “Clinton Rendition” program, so that was always a Red Herring and was never going to go anywhere. A bunch of Dem Senators and Congress people, including Nancy Pelosi, who were fully briefed during real bipartisan meetings by the Bush administration on our interrogation techniques will have to explain why they are now "Shocked! Shocked I say” at our interrogation techniques.  [Just as they were in the bailout Wall-Street payoffs. “Shocked. We wrote it, read it, and voted for it, and now we are shocked!” But I digress...].? 

Answer this question:

Is torture effective?

Then jam yourself with a cattle prod in an appropriate place and ask yourself again, until you answer truthfully. If you think you are being disingenuous, raise the voltage. Okay, I am joking, but how stupid is this? 

Of course torture is effective. Who the hell are they talking about? Who really believes pain or the threat of pain does not make people give information? Most effective police techniques are manipulative or coercive. I might hold out against some questioning, but would spill my guts as soon as they started torturing me, I am not that tough and neither are most of you. I would also try to be as truthful as possible to avoid future pain, they always ask some stuff they already know. You would tell them everything you knew when they pulled out the jumper cables, get serious. People keep going on TV or writing that this does not work, has never worked, and the media packages it, and their unthinking worshippers nod their heads. Of course it always has and always will work.  The question is one of morality and ethics, but "they" need to make it one of effectiveness to avoid choosing a course of action and being responsible for it, "Everyone knows it does not work." Of course it does, and of course they are not only lying but incredibly stupid. Except they get away with it. And after people hear it enough, people start believing it. The media that got Obama elected want to keep him popular. All talk, no action, no responsibility, no blame.

Then the experts say people might not tell the truth, so what they say cannot be trusted. Maybe we should never ask any criminal anything, they might not tell the truth. Don't talk to your wife and kids, haven't they lied to you before? At least once? This is the kind of weird mind twist they pull off. 

"We already had the information." implying, okay, you caught me lying, torture did work, but we already knew it. Even if true, and it defies the laws of probability and human behavior to believe it is always true, intelligence requires more than one source whenever possible, the more the better, certainly in the case of a terrorist attack. The idea that having information from more than one source has no value is more obvious baloney they get away with. Until we actually have a press who can do better than asking Obama how enchanted he is, you will be better off throwing a hammer through your TV or watching the cartoon network than the propaganda ministries of the Obamanation. If they don't bail out their loser liberal newspapers they will be gone soon enough and we won't have to worry about the waste of paper.